Sideline Sessions

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everybody to another episode of Sideline Sessions here on the BE Podcast Network. It is, as always, my pleasure to have you with us. And we're going to have another great conversation today that hopefully will give you a variety of insights and ideas. To help you in [00:01:00] your journey as a coach, as a parent as a stakeholder in student athletics.

So my guest today is Kurt Hines. Coach Hines has been coaching football for more than 20 years, and he is currently the head coach at Coronado High School in California. Without further ado, Kurt, welcome to the show.

Kurt Hines: I appreciate you having me on. It's blessed to be yeah, just blessed to be connected.

Ross Romano: Let's get right into , your journey. As I said, you've been coached for more than 20 years. How did you get into coaching? Was it something you always planned on doing? What was your journey like in that regard?

Kurt Hines: Yeah, coaching was definitely not something I had always planned on. I started playing, grew up on the East Coast in New Hampshire, Rhode Island. Grew up playing hockey and football and loved both. But went on to play college football at Plymouth State in a Division III school in New Hampshire.

And one of my professors, it was my junior year of college, said that they were looking for volunteers to help with the special needs. Flag football team. And I jumped at the chance cause I was going to school for elementary education. [00:02:00] And there was a moment that first practiced Ross where there was a young woman, sixth grade, I believe, with Down syndrome.

And she and I were sitting less than four yards apart. And I was throwing this very small football to her underhand and she dropped it and she'd laugh and she dropped it and she'd laugh and she kept dropping it and laughing. And then sixth or seventh time she caught it and her eyes just lit up. And I was like, dang, I want to do that.

I knew I was in school for elementary education, but I had never thought about. Also taking my passion for helping people onto the football field. So, my wife and I got married young, we were 22 years old. And after my fourth year teaching, kind of getting my grounding, if you will. I reached out to a local high school football coach and asked to volunteer, wasn't even looking for a paid position, just wanted to get my foot in the door somehow.

And he ended up saying, Hey, let me come over to your classroom. I'll meet with you and we'll talk about what we have. He came over with one of [00:03:00] their team managers, who was a young man with Down syndrome. I was like, that's kind of a cool thing for me. There's a little connection there. And it just so happened he was looking for a head freshman coach.

So I was thrown into the fire , full go and and loved it. Loved everything about it. I was blessed to coach with someone who knew the game of football and more importantly, in my opinion, new people, like he understood what it meant to serve people. So I spent seven years there and absolutely loved it.

And after the seventh year, I got a call from the head coach of the town we lived in. Now, my wife and I have three daughters and one son, and my son was, I believe in seventh grade at that time. And he said, coach, we'd love to have you come coaching our staff with us. So I left that first school with, on great terms just to have a chance to coach in my own town and potentially coach my son.

After two weeks, I was done. I told my wife, I'm done. I'm going to honor my commitment, finish the year. But the head coach and I at the new school did not have the same philosophy. Not even as far as football was concerned, but [00:04:00] as far as people were concerned, as far as really blessing, serving, empowering people.

So I finished the year and then head coaching position opened up in a The other side of where we lived and My wife said, Hey, apply for the head coaching job. I was like, no I just, I've been a freshman coach for seven years, a varsity assistant for one year. I'm not qualified. And she's like, well, just try it.

Just see what happens. So long story short, I applied for the job, ended up getting it and went through the growing pains of being a brand new high school and not having seniors and being a really bad head coach. My first. I say year, maybe two or three, just learning a lot. And then my last four years there, we went to the state championship three out of the four years, had 144 young men in the program, which for New Hampshire was huge.

And then our daughter, our oldest would come out of San Diego state called one day, shortly after she had gotten married and she said, Hey, I'm pregnant. And I was like, I was thrilled, but then I was like, ah, man, we're moving. I knew we didn't want to be grandparents to the other side of the country. [00:05:00] So, nine years ago we sold everything, moved out to California.

And as you mentioned earlier, I'm heading into my 27th year of coaching high school football and absolutely love everything about it.

Ross Romano: you know, what did you find? I think one thing that's, interesting and somewhat unique. It's football is maybe not the only sport where this is true, but you know, particularly coaching freshmen, right? That football is one of the rare high profile team sports where a lot of. the players, the high school players have not played organized football before high school, right?

You don't typically, you're not going to go out for the baseball team, the basketball team, without ever having played the sport before. It's just, it doesn't work that way. But football there's a , depending on where you are, there, there are youth programs and sometimes large ones, but there's also a lot of , either because [00:06:00] of, development and safety concerns or just other reasons.

And it's also not necessarily necessary. I mean, you can pick up the sport, but I'm wondering if you know, what your perspective was on coaching kids at that age who are 14, 15 or so. It's unusual compared to a lot of sports where you will maybe are coaching them and it's their first time ever playing that sport.

Maybe they've watched on TV or something, but now it's like, okay, now you actually have to learn the game. What is that like?

Kurt Hines: That's a phenomenal question. I years ago I was at a coaching clinic. I was still living in New Hampshire at the time. Went to a coaching clinic in Massachusetts, and I don't remember the gentleman's name, but he was at the time the special teams coordinator for the New York Giants. And he started his presentation by saying , asking how many college coaches were in the room, how many youth, high school, you name it.

And he said, you high school coaches have the toughest coaching job ever. And at first I thought he was just kind of blowing smoke to kind of , get the [00:07:00] audience , to like what he was saying. And, but he went on to say, and I never thought about it this way. Even at the collegiate level, especially nowadays, where the game has evolved, whether you're talking JUCO through D1, and especially in the NFL, you have the best of the best.

They're all athletes. You know, some might be a little bit bigger, a little bit faster, but they're all athletes. And he went on to say, and to answer your question, not only at the freshman level, but at all of high school, I have learned over the 27 years, that we are coaching some young men who have played since second grade, some who have played a year, and as you alluded to, some who are coming out.

I have a young man who's been working out with us this past offseason who is going to be a senior, who is a stud. He's a, now he's a stud when I say a stud. He's a stud athlete. I haven't seen him hold a football, touch a football, or run a route. But he's coming out for his first time as a senior. So it's a beautiful challenge and I love it because it's a reminder for our staff and I to continue to be teachers, whether we're teachers by profession or not, that's what great coaching, in my opinion, is all about.

It's about teaching [00:08:00] someone what to do and then allowing them to thrive in doing that. So it's definitely a challenge.

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Ross Romano: It's an interesting sport and even at higher levels, right, there's I mean, there's Hall of Fame quality tight ends in , the NFL that didn't play in college. There's you know, a rugby player that just signed with the Kansas City Chiefs and , there's a, there's going to be a learning curve to be sure.

But again, it's something that. You don't see in, in other sports and is not. Always understood , there's a, I think the public perception, for example, you hear people talk about , how Michael Jordan was such a, this bad baseball player and like to have not played in that many years and to go professional and he was, it's actually pretty impressive

Kurt Hines: right.

Ross Romano: that he was not an absolute zero.

But in that sport, that's just not the way it works. So it makes it different from , in, in different [00:09:00] regards. And because certainly there's you know, there's certain things about awareness and knowledge of the game. And there's a lot of things that come up a lot on this show about, Oh, I wish I knew this when, right.

Things that in my experience that I have a lot different perspective on now than I did when I was playing because of , either whether or not different sports were engaged in much film study and how that was conducted and the things you can see, or , just different, the importance of.

Fundamentals and body positioning, right? And techniques and things that you can see when you're watching somebody do it right, and you're kind of getting that guidance on it, but when you're in the moment of doing it, you might not totally realize what you're doing wrong or and those are all things that, are important to learn, but it is unusual compared to other sports that you know, you'd be learning [00:10:00] it when you're already at that level which is a very high level of play.

Kurt Hines: Well, and it's definitely comes, goes, Back to the teaching aspect of it, we had a young man several years ago who came out as a junior, and he was a track kid. And he was by far the fastest young man in our program. His junior year, he didn't see the varsity field at all. And for someone that's not in the world of football or coaching, you might think, well, why wouldn't you put him at wide receiver?

Why wouldn't you put him at, on returner? He just didn't have the football IQ yet to understand. How to make things work. Because he was such a humble young man and we were able to take the time to coach him. His senior year, he had an amazing year individually and helped us as a program. But there is that learning curve for any sport, I'm sure.

But for football it doesn't. It's not enough to just be a great athlete. You've got to have that football IQ,

Ross Romano: Is there anything I'm curious since you have had experience having coached on both coasts, right. And that's , sport to [00:11:00] sport. Again, this is a thing where it's going to be different, but are there any differences that are, would be important for coaches to think about, or , maybe a coach who's always been right on one side of the country or the other.

A perspective from having been in both sides about how the how the sporting landscape is or things that work really well , have worked well for you more recently or worked well for you on the East Coast that you know, anything like that for coaches to think about and say, Oh, that's interesting because up here we always do it this way, but that's , that's a different way of looking at it.

Kurt Hines: Yeah. Great question. So we, the biggest difference I've noticed personally from the Northeast to the Southwest is the number of transfers, young men going from one program to another. And it usually happens when there is a, and I'm using air quotes for your audience, but an elite seven on 17 that just takes kids from any school and all of a sudden you have 10, 15 kids that transfer to one school or another.

And I know that's not Only here in Southern California. I know it happens in Texas and Georgia and Florida [00:12:00] and I'm sure it happens in most states But having only coached in New Hampshire now in California, that's the biggest difference I've seen on the flip side of that I think way too many of us players and coaches think ah man Georgia football must be something special or New Jersey football or Texas football I think football is football and what I mean by that is you're gonna have great coaches in every state You're going to have great athletes in every state.

Now the commitment level and the, how the community at large sees that sport. In Texas they always talk about it, it being a religion, and it is. You look at the money they invest there, in the schools and the coaches. It's a beautiful game. And I think from state to state, there's probably not that many differences.

I know each governing board , the CIF here in California that sets our schedules and stuff, there's a lot of things that just don't make sense to me. But I wouldn't be surprised that if you talk to coaches in all 50 states, that they'd say that their state does some messed up things as well. So I think football is football, which is a beautiful thing because , coaches that [00:13:00] do move, whether it's because their spouses have different jobs or

If you're a good coach, I think you can coach anywhere. But I think it's a great reminder for coaches that are listening that you have to find your why. You know, if you're using football to pad your own resume, to climb up some ladder and to move on, then go ahead and do it. If you're using football to serve others, which is , In my opinion, what coaches should do if you're using football as a platform to bless, serve, and empower others, then it doesn't matter what school you're coaching out, how big or how small you have the opportunity daily to be a blessing and an impact to the people you coach.

Ross Romano: Yeah, it's yeah, it is interesting that there's going to be these different rules and regulations wherever you are and something that, yeah, came up in a conversation I had last season with Jeff Howell around college recruiting, and we talked a lot about football. Bergard is like, Especially as parents, as student athletes, it's important to know the rules where you are as you're navigating those things, because there can be , any [00:14:00] variety of reasons why a student may be transferring schools.

For example, I remember at I believe I remember, I don't know if it's still this way, but like when I was in school in New Jersey, the rule was if a student had transferred schools, they had to sit out the first 30 days of the season, but it would only apply to the first sport that they played. So, let's say you played football and basketball, you'd have to sit out the, and you transferred, you would sit out the first 30 days of the football season that didn't apply to the basketball season because you had already, and it like stuff, which is, I don't.

I mean, I don't know why it's , necessary for the student to sit out, period, if their family moved towns or something , but just , something like that, that you may not, if you were to make a guess, what do I think the rules are? It's probably not what you would guess because it's not, there's not exactly any clear you know, obviousness to it, but.

It is interesting. And football being a sport that's [00:15:00] not necessarily super weather dependent, right. Where there's certain sports where there's a major difference just in the outlook for. student athletes potential future options, baseball being a big one that , if you're in the Northeast, there's certain months of the year where you're not playing that sport.

A lot of the players are in Florida, California, Texas, because it's a year round thing there. But it is , and as you say, there's great coaches, great athletes everywhere. And building a program and and a culture. And I mean, I don't know how big the school was in New Hampshire, but I think having 144 players in the program is quite.

something because I've experienced the , the opposite of that where there's a huge school and you would say, man, you would think they would have a much bigger team here. That sideline's looking kind of empty, right? But that's a result of what's the culture does every single member of that [00:16:00] team feel like they're a valued contributor to that team, regardless of if they're a starter or what their , what their relative standing is.

And if they don't feel like that, okay, well, why would I, why am I here? Right.

Kurt Hines: Yeah. No, it's funny. Our school in New Hampshire was at the time 1100 students. So, so, not a huge school, but not small. What, another difference I found moving to California was, and I'd love your take on this also, being from the East Coast, I had never thought about water polo.

As a high school sport until the Olympics came around and you saw it every four years ago. That's an interesting sport. Well, in Southern California, water polo is not only a sport, it's a huge sport. And it's a sport that's played in the fall. So sometimes I'll walk around the campus and I'll see these young men that look like they're , six, three, and just chiseled.

It looks like a perfect defensive end or a wide receiver, a tight end. And they're like, Oh, I play water polo. It's the same season. So that's that's an interesting dynamic to have that, that challenge where some of the best athletes in the school [00:17:00] Southern California are in the pool as we're on the field, which is something I'm trying to not change, but always trying to , tell our young men, recruit the hallways.

I'm not a fan at all of coaches that , poach young men from other schools. I think , water your own grass and work on building a culture that, as you mentioned, people feel loved and valued and they want to stay. And for the ones that don't and you wish them the best and that they move on.

You know, just you hope they have success, but I really stress to our young men, recruit the hallways. When you see someone, don't assume that just because they play Baseball or basketball or water polo. Some are during the same season. Some aren't, but don't assume that they don't want to play football.

Invite them to come work out with us and open the door.

Ross Romano: Yeah. And things are always changing. Yeah. We we had some good swim teams at my school. We did not have water polo. Not, but but it was a changing landscape, right? It was probably my, I think my junior year when the school added a lacrosse team. Now, lacrosse is a huge [00:18:00] sport. But It wasn't as big in the state back then.

A couple of teams were added, Leap Hockey and Crew, that were technically club sports in the sense that they were Affiliated with the school, but the school didn't give them any money. They had to raise their own funds, but they could rep , represent the school in competition. Maybe that, I mean, that may have changed by now.

But it's right. Like there's new things that become available or new things you learn about and, oh, this is. This would be a good thing for me, or I used to , I used to only, or you know, golf being another one. Okay. That's a spring sport or it was a spring sport where , where I was and it was something that you may not have known that you were interested in it until you, you got to that point.

Right. And then if you knew about it, so yeah, I think, I mean, if you build. a team and a culture [00:19:00] that people want to be a part of, then they're going to be interested. And it's not right. It's not about competing or poaching or whatever, but one, you just want to create you know, one of my this show is obviously related to education and I do my consulting work in education and my kind of guiding thesis around the, conversations and debates around school choice is It's only a choice if there's multiple good option, right?

Like, if there's only one thing that we're saying is good, then that's not actually a choice at all. So, let's have all the sports programs be great programs, have great coaches. and then give the students the option to decide which one they want to be in. And so if everybody's just focused on doing the best they can and creating a great experience and , being a strong [00:20:00] leader, then that's naturally going to attract people to be a part of that.

And and that really is what it's about. And there's still young kids. There's a lot of hard decisions that. We have to make at young ages, we're not totally ready, but , we all reserve the right to change our minds or say, Oh, I thought this was the sport for me, but now I'm really interested in that one.

And I really like what they're doing over there. Let me check that out.

Kurt Hines: I completely agree. And I think it's our job as coaches, parents, and trainers. One of my biggest pet peeves in sports, and I think this applies to all sports is when you have parents or trainers. or coaches that tell the young men and young women if you want to be great, you need to specialize.

And I share that with our parents every year. I'm like, if someone is telling their child that it's either ignorant or selfish, let them choose. As you mentioned, they only have one chance at this thing, being a child , being a youth. Football player, baseball player, whatever it is. And I tell our [00:21:00] athletes, like, if you're passionate about multiple sports, play multiple sports.

If I don't see you during the off season, cause you're playing basketball and then you're playing baseball. Great. Enjoy it. Have fun. You know, I think it's selfish for people to say, Hey, listen, you'll be a great football player. You shouldn't miss a workout and stop playing basketball and stop playing baseball because you need to be here with us because it's not true.

You know, you can be an athlete and experience great things and learn to take coaching from different coaching styles that is going to further bless you down the road as you go into the workforce and you go out into , I don't want to say the real world because high school is the real world for them.

That's their mission. Present right now, but I think we need to, as coaches, support them in what they're passionate about, and then help them to thrive, not look at our own agendas, just our own programs, and see how can they help us, but how can we help them.

Ross Romano: Yeah, and then, and certainly also for , for those who are paying attention to child [00:22:00] development, physical development, right? There's a lot of things about specialization at early ages that are harmful, or at least counterproductive as far as I'm concerned about. You know, continuing to strain the exact same muscles 12 months a year versus having a variety, and there's plenty of examples , especially, and I think a lot of the ways that you know, college and professional leagues, for example, have become international in the players that are playing, and you could see from different backgrounds that players have the way it benefits them, right?

That somebody who grew up playing soccer. develops footwork in a totally different way than somebody who never played that sport. And they might just play it as a kid and then go on to whatever else, but there's a certain way that you learn to use your feet and your legs that you might not learn if you never participated in that or, and, or different types of conditioning or you know, that kind of [00:23:00] thing that it's not that.

You know, anybody needs to be forced to participate in a bunch of things they're not interested in, but at the same time, most kids, one, have a variety of interests, don't totally know yet what that one thing is and, It's not necessarily, I mean, I, the belief that it makes you any better to do something 12 months a year versus four or five isn't necessarily so.

Anyway and yeah, and then that's like, right, as a coach at those levels, it's, it's your job to, to care about the players and what's best for them and , To trust that, look, if I'm running a good program here, they'll come back and they'll want to be a part of it. I don't need to. You know, limit them from, I mean, and that skill is a leadership skill, right?

That applies to any field that applies to business. I mean, it's something I had a [00:24:00] conversation with on a different podcast from a totally different perspective, but about. Companies and investing in growth and professional development and how there's so many of them that are basically, they won't do it because they're afraid that people will take those skills and go somewhere else with them.

Right. And it's like, well, if you're doing the right things and you're leading a good organization, then you have to be confident that people are going to want to be there and they'll apply those skills. And if they choose to leave, it's. You know, maybe it's just because it's the best thing for them or maybe it's also a sign that you're not really running a good organization,

Kurt Hines: Yeah, and I love that point you just said because I've heard that said in the football world also We don't do this because what do they leave or we don't do that. What do they leave? And well, if you're not teaching those skills, what do they stay? So you say you're limiting your own team success and growth not only the individuals But as a program because you have an insecurity about them potentially leaving Why not give them absolutely [00:25:00] everything you have give them your absolute best and if for whatever reason they do leave Know that you've helped them become better where they're going and not just limit them regardless of where they are.

Ross Romano: you know, so. My understanding, Kurt, is that you had , you had played football growing up and then, as you shared, when you got into coaching, it wasn't necessarily your plan all along, and then the opportunity came and it was something you clearly were passionate about. But you've described in you know, on, on your website , about that initial overwhelm saying like, I knew what I knew as a player, but then when I started coaching, it was a totally different how did you get through that?

Were there mentors that you leaned on? Like, what was your process for kind of getting your feet under you and particularly as you moved into head coaching roles and , very different jobs there.

Kurt Hines: Yeah, I think one of the key factors to , success is all relative, of course, but to where I am today, my love for the game [00:26:00] and heading into my 27th year coaching the game and is failure, just embracing failure. I think way too often, and this is for all walks of life. I think we think success and failure are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, where success is way down there and failure is way back there.

I believe success and failure are more intertwined than anything else, and if we can embrace as a husband, as a father, as an employer, an employee, coach, player, if we can embrace failure and understand that, okay this suck right now. This stuff I'm going through is going to make me better. And it just doesn't just magically happen.

You can't have a losing season. It's all right. Well, I'm going to learn from that and then not take the time to sit down and dissect it and say, all right, what did I do poorly? Where did I mess up? But being able to have mentors, absolutely. I've been blessed to have some great mentors, past and present to learn from them.

And I think the greatest teacher for all of us is our own experiences. And then realizing what drives us, what motivates us, what lights us on fire. And [00:27:00] when we find something we're truly passionate about, the failures aren't as difficult to go through because you realize that you're going to grow through those and use them to help you.

But yeah, my, I joke about it now, but my first year as a head coach we set records in the state of New Hampshire, but they weren't records that anyone wants to have. You know, they're records of getting your teeth kicked in more than any other school in the history of the dying game. And I remember that whole year, that first year of losing every single game, thinking to myself, A, I'm going to be one and done.

They're not going to have me back. And B, why the heck am I doing this? What, why not? And once I'm using air quotes, just be an assistant coach where I don't have as much responsibility and pressure and expectations and my why for that was, I want to be in a position to hire the men and or women that stand side by side with me who know the game of football, but more importantly, know we are not God's gift to football, but God is, or football is God's gift to us that we're going to use this platform Where we have a [00:28:00] captive audience to change lives.

Yes, we want to win games, we need to win games to keep our jobs, but what are we doing that really is going to leave a lasting impact? And it's more than just what happens on the scoreboard on a Friday night. So, knowing that, and doing a lot of self reflection, especially that first year after losing every game, Coming back my second year, they didn't fire me, winning two games, still not lighting the world on fire, and then slowly making it to the playoffs, and slowly building a powerhouse.

It all goes back to the one key focus I had, and still have in coaching, and that's relationships. You know, making a personal connection with the people you're blessed to coach and coach with, and trying to serve them. Saying, what can I do for you? How can I help you be better? How can I help you achieve your goals?

And, It doesn't always work , sometimes you can't reach the young men or young women the way you wished and prayed you could, but more often than not, you do make lasting impressions that not only helps them become a better athlete, but more importantly, to [00:29:00] navigate through life and to grow and to learn themselves what motivates and moves them.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Are there any lessons that you've been able to hold on to and apply that I guess I categorize them as negative lessons where the, when I'm in that position, I don't want to do it that way. You know, that kind of thing.

Kurt Hines: Yeah, absolutely, it goes back to relationships, where the very first coach I ever coached under he was and is a great man. One thing I learned very early on was he would allow anyone to be on his staff. And there were coaches, good people, but not committed. And there were a handful of very committed coaches.

But we on the, on game day, we looked like a Division I college football program with 20 coaches on the sideline. And then you'd look around midweek on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, like, wait, there's seven of us. And I learned right there, I said, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna have coaches on our staff.

That are fully committed. Now [00:30:00] family is going to come first and I always tell them don't miss an important thing with your wife, with your children, with whatever it is. Family has to come first in my opinion. That being said, I want you at 99 percent of everything. If you're making this commitment to be there for the young men and young women we coach.

So I have every coach in our staff. Minus one. I have our staff this past year ranged from 19 years old, a former player of mine, the 77 now coach Mike Pampa, who's 77 has coached for 43 years, I believe, and he's 77 and the guy exercises every day, but he's 77. So he came to me at the end of the last season and he said, coach.

He was very complimentary about, he said, my program, but our program and what we're doing. And he goes, it's just too much for me. Would you be okay if I missed Thursdays? And I said, Mike, 100%. Yes, absolutely. Because he's in it for the right reason. He has a wealth of knowledge and he's not coaching.

So you can wear a headset on a Friday [00:31:00] night or wear , a coach's Cades jacket. I had another coach who I love just as much much closer in age to what I am. And he had to step down because his just work life balance was becoming too much. So coach Papa, the 77 year old said, coach what about if we do what you're doing for me with coach so and so?

I said, absolutely not. I said, not because he doesn't have the same value, not because I don't love him as much, but I'm not going to open that can of worms where I can just have coaches come when they want to. So what I did with that coach to be able to keep him on staff was I lightened his load a little bit.

I said, Coach, what if I take away this one special team for you? Have you just focused on the defensive interior line? Would that work for you? And he was elated. He said, yes, I'd love to do it. And I'm all in again, and it's great. But so, yeah, there have definitely been a lot of lessons I've learned over the years.

And just one last year, I learned a valuable lesson from a mistake I made where a young man was gonna come out and I heard through the rumor mail from his friends that he wasn't gonna come out because he didn't want to play line, [00:32:00] he wanted to play running back. So I had prayed about it and I thought, alright, is he better with our program?

Can he learn more and benefit more by being a running back as opposed to just not playing? So I met with him, let him come out and play running back. He quit three weeks later. And he just said he wasn't passionate about it. Great young man. And there's rumor that he's coming back out again this coming season.

The lesson I learned there was, I'm not going to have young men in our program, or young women, and say, yeah, you can play wherever you want. I'm going to tell them, compete wherever you want, but we're going to put you where we need you for our team. And that's truly what's best. It's easy to say that.

But we're a small program at Coronado. We have 900 students, the entire school. We're about 70 young men in our program. And I did it with the best of intentions, but I learned the valuable lesson of from now on, moving forward, I'm going to tell every interested individual in our program, we're going to have you coach where we need you to coach.

We're going to have you play where we need you to play. And if that [00:33:00] doesn't work out with what you want to do, then it's just, this isn't the program for you.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. Another. I mean, in that point, that's another. you know, interesting piece of the sport of football, right, is for , those who haven't played before, haven't been as immersed in it. There's , what you call the skill positions the ones that get the glamor and the others that don't with all of them being equally important, right.

And and they're not always being, I mean, obviously there's. certain physical characteristics that associate with different positions, but beyond that it's not always obvious. It's not like if you're on the basketball team and you're the tall kid, you're the center, right? So it's it's, it kind of requires that To make it really work, I , the dialogue, right.

Just to make the player understand why this is the best [00:34:00] opportunity and how this contributes to personal and team success. But kind of going back also to what you were referencing about the coaching staff, I mentioned that like, what is your approach to building a staff?

Kurt Hines: Yeah. So it's funny. I just came back two weeks ago from being blessed to speak at the UFC at the Utah football coaches association. And it was on hiring, supporting and empowering your coaching staff. Years ago, when I first became a head coach, I would sit down with an interested coach, talk for maybe an hour or so, just X his nose.

And what I found through trial and error and making a lot of mistakes was I hired a lot of people who knew the game of football. But we're not people I'd want to break bread with and coach with. And we didn't have same philosophy as far as people. So I've completely changed the way I interview now.

When I interview a coach for a position, regardless of the position, regardless of the level, I will ask them to come in and I'll set an alarm on my phone. Turn it over, obviously, but. For 30 minutes. I don't want to take too much of their time. [00:35:00] It's not about me and my time, but, and I'll just talk life. I just want to talk about what makes them draw , what drives them, what makes them tick, what they're excited about.

And whenever they steer it towards football, I'll listen and try to steer it back towards what's one of the accomplishments in your life outside of the game that you're most proud of. What's something that you think , like to accomplish in your life. And you just kind of get to find out what makes them tick.

And somewhere in that conversation, I'll ask them , why do you want to coach? And they all have the same interview answers. I want to give back. I want to make a difference. Well, that looks a lot different when the proverbial crap hits the fan. And you see a player talking back to a coach and you see how the coach handles it, or if we're losing a game or having a losing season.

So what I do now is if I have a good sense of, alright, I like this person, I can see myself coaching with them and spending a lot of time with them, in that first interview, I'll set up a second interview. I don't tell them it's a second interview per se, but I ask them to come to the weigh room. And sometimes the same coach, or Perspective Coach, that'll [00:36:00] say, I just want to make a difference, I want to give back.

We'll come into the weight room and I tell them, you can work out with the guys, you can just sit back and observe, you can talk to people, do whatever you want. And that's all the direction I give them. Those same individuals sometimes will walk right past that real skinny kid that can't bench the bar.

The real heavy kid that can't do a single box jump , you name it. And we'll go right towards the studs. And I'll watch them as I'm spotting and working out with the players, and I'll watch them continue to walk by right, right past that skinny kid, or the real heavy kid, or the quirky kid, whatever it is.

And I make a note to myself, this is not someone I want to coach with. And then I have coaches that I get a good sense with in the first interview, who I see come into the weight room. And they'll go to every individual and they'll go to the kid that looks like he is the farthest thing from an athlete and not just say hi and walk past them, but talk to them.

And I'm like, that's someone I want to coach with. That's someone that, that we have a lot more in common. And then the third interview is, so it's a process, but the third interview, [00:37:00] if they make it past the weight room interview is then we'll sit down and talk specifically about the X's and the O's. I'll talk about how would you block this scheme?

How would you teach this skill set? And how would you do this? And I think it's important as head coaches that we don't want to micromanage our staff. At the same time, there, there gotta be for all of us, some non negotiables. For me, two non negotiables are, we have a no swearing policy, If the player swears, they do 25 push ups.

Well, if we're leading by example, coaches can't swear either. So if coaches swear, we do 25 push ups. It's not a big deal, but it kind of sets a precedent of controlling ourselves in heated situations. The second thing is, I don't use conditioning as a punishment. I think that's like sitting a fourth, I teach fourth grade by profession.

I think that's like telling a young child that got in trouble. Hey, instead of going to recess, you need to sit down and read.

Ross Romano: Right.

Kurt Hines: We're sending a message that reading is a punishment. Reading's a bad thing. If we're using conditioning as a punishment, they're going to learn to hate conditioning.

So [00:38:00] I, and the coaches have asked me, and I love the question, well, coach, what do you do when someone's talking back? What do you do when someone shows up to practice late? My first response always is find out why one of the things I talked about in Utah was I had asked the audience what they felt the most important stat in high school football was.

Whether it was yards per carry , conversions in the red zone , down in distance , when you're going for it and forth and whatever. And I shared 20 percent and the latest reports that I've studied say that over 20 percent of high school student, not just student athletes, but students have considered or attempted suicide.

And that number has only grown since COVID. I think it's only going to continue to grow, unfortunately, with social media. And I love social media, but depending on how you use it, it can bring joy and blessings to your life or not. But I told them, I said, the only thing we're doing is helping build better football players or fill in the blank, baseball, hockey, soccer, you name it.

We're failing them miserably. We need to help build champions on and off the field. [00:39:00] And I think it's important for us to teach them, going back to the punishment of conditioning. Playing sports is a privilege. It's a blessing that not everyone can do. Some children are born without limbs. Some children are born without the ability to walk or whatever it is.

And tell them we're conditioning to get better. We're conditioning to be the best conditioned athletes on the field. And if I have a young man, for example, this happened a few years ago, I won't say his name obviously, who swore in practice. One of the captains heard him and said, Hey, so and so do your pushups.

He's like, I'm not doing my pushups. That's stupid. This is football. So the captain came up to me later in practice and said, coach, I don't want to tattle, but so and so won't do his pushups. I said, I love it. Appreciate you to held him to that. Let me go talk to him. So I went to go talk to him very quietly.

Like you and I are talking now, not to embarrass him, not in front of anyone else, and I said, well, whether you like it or not, this is a policy we have. Do your pushups. And he looks at me, he goes, coach, I'm not doing my pushups. I thought, alright, here's a moment where it's going to be a turning point for this young [00:40:00] man.

I don't want to yell at him and scream at him and kick him off the field, but I said, you need to do your push ups so you can go home. He goes, Coach, I'm not doing my push ups and I'm not leaving. So I thought, oh, all right, here we go. So I walked up close to him, not to intimidate him, but walked up really close and whispered.

I said, so and so, I love you. I always will. If you don't get off this field right now, you're not playing Friday and you'll never play here again. And in that, as I was saying that to him, I thought, man, if this goes south , I care for him. So he walked off the field. 20 minutes later, he came back in his street clothes.

Tears not streaming down his face, but you could see him crying. And he goes, Coach, can I just watch, please? I said, absolutely. And I was like, thank you, Jesus, because I knew I could have tried to pull a tough guy coach like, get off my field and mine. I hate the whole my stuff. This isn't my team.

It's not my field. It's our field. It's our team. But because I had enough presence in that moment to save face for him. He stayed at practice and then came to talk afterwards and didn't get it. It goes, coach the last school, it's a military family. And you know, where I coach in Corrado, [00:41:00] we have North Island, which is a military base.

So it was a lot of turnover. So he said, well , our last school, we were a great program. I think it was Virginia. You know, we can swear all the time and I don't get it. And so I explained to him why I had that policy. And I said, bud, through your whole life, you're going to have things you don't get.

You know, your wife someday is going to do things you just don't like, and you're going to have to, am I just going to leave her? Well, hopefully not. You're going to, you're going to dig in together and work through it. You're going to have employers that have you do things. So this is one of those things that you may never understand, or maybe down the road you will, but this is why we do things this way.

And it was great because he ended up saving face, coming back, as I said, coming back, watching practice in his street clothes, came to practice the next day, and I thought long and hard about this one, but I almost just said his name, but when he came to practice, I gave him a hug, said, Hey, I'm glad you're here, before we get started, do your push ups.

He goes, Coach, that was yesterday, I know it was, but you never did them, so do your push ups. He did them, kind of had a smirk on his face. And it was never a problem again that year. Now, I think there were two or three more times that he swore once in a game and twice in [00:42:00] practice, I believe. But when I say it wasn't a problem, he did his push ups right away.

So I thought that was a teachable moment where we could take this young man where he could have gone really south really quickly, but it didn't. So I think, yeah, the world gives us opportunities daily, not the world, the sport, to make an impact in people's lives. If we get our ego out of the way, And realize it's not about us as coaches.

Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. And it's it's interesting for whatever reason that this conversation is making me think about a bunch of things from totally different, context, but it's reminded me of a , a recent conversation on my other podcast with a great education author and researcher named Tom Guskey.

And we were talking about what is the purpose of grading? And he said the , the first. question you have to answer is my job as a teacher to select talent or to develop talent, right? And when you think about coaching, [00:43:00] it's both. You have to be able to do both. And when you describe , the coaches who walk past Certain players and like, or , and coaches fall victim to falling into both buckets, right?

There's some coaches who clearly are really focused on, okay, I'm going to choose who my high level athletes are here, and I'm really going to focus on them and they don't give enough attention to the others. And there's also some coaches who just can't get themselves out of the mindset of they only want to work with the kids who, to me, this usually.

Well, I think ego can drive either of these tendencies, but it's, I want to focus on the ones who I can get the credit for what happens with them , and I've had coaches like that in the past that it wasn't so much about the ability, but. They really they only wanted to focus their attention and resources on the student athletes [00:44:00] who in other, I guess the best way of describing it is who the sport was their top and seemingly , maybe only right opportunity at.

a great future, for example. So a kid, if a kid was a great student , and an athlete and whatever, it was like, Oh, whatever. But if it was a kid who was like, this kid's either going to go pro at this sport or there it's nothing. It's those kinds of things, but there's like, you have to be able to do all of it.

Yes. You have to select talent. I have to know who's my starting quarterback and whatever. But I also like everybody on this is part of the program here. Everybody here deserves to get better and have me investing in them. And if we're , missing out on one or the other, or you're, or the , developing character disciplines, right?

That's what you're describing with that rule is it's a discipline. It's not a, if you break the rule, you're kicked off the [00:45:00] team. It's , if you break the rule you do the discipline and you come back and , it's just a way of kind of getting into, to habits that are positive.

Kurt Hines: Exactly. It's funny, one thing I want to mention, and I have no skin in this game as far as getting any revenue, but you mentioned something that I would love to have your audience, even if it's just one person, take note of. The greatest book I've ever read in regards to coaching is called Inside Out Coaching, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

It's by Joe Ehrman. Inside out coaching, and I got to give credit here because I'm not this smart to come up with this, but he writes about how all coaches at all levels for any sport, that there are two types of coaches, transactional, like I'm going to come to you Ross, like a bank, because I know you can help me out, so I'm going to become friends with you and buddy with you because I know down the road I might be able to get something from you.

And a lot of coaches are that transactional coach where they're going to pour into that kid because he's a stud and it's going to make him look good and I'm going to take credit for him when he gets drafted and say, Oh, he was one of [00:46:00] mine or whatever it is. And then there's the transformational coaches, the coaches that get that not everyone's going to go to college, that not everyone's going to go pro, that we are in the business of serving others.

And if you are a transformational coach, you're going to pour into that. Red headed stepchild, so to speak, just as much as you are into that 6'4, 290 D end or whatever it may be. And for me that was a huge, aha, paradigm shift moment where I was like, wow. You know, cause I had read that book, I think that I'd been coaching about 20 years at that time.

Maybe seven years ago, give or take, I'd read it. And I was like, gosh, I've met so many coaches that are the epitome of what he's describing as far as the transactional coaches. The ones who only want to coach people that they can gain something from. And then it brought a smile to my face when I thought about all the transformational coaches I had and had coached with.

And I think as coaches, we need to ask ourselves daily, which coach am I today? Like, did I do a good enough job? Yes, I'm going to spend more [00:47:00] time, as you mentioned, on reps and focusing on the skill set of our number one quarterback. But if I'm not helping and connecting and getting to know on a personal level, number two, three, and four, what am I doing , and I'm not talking about because number one might get hurt or might transfer, but just through life, like does that fourth string player, for example, know that he has just as much an importance and impact and makes a difference in our program and in my life.

than the number one starter because there are going to be kids in our program, young men in our program and young women that never start, but show up and work just as hard, sometimes harder and are just as coachable and study the playbook more sometimes than the starters. Who just aren't naturally gifted as much or aren't the same size or height , or weight, whatever it is, speed, but they matter just as much.

And I think it's important for us to remember that and have that in the forefront of our mind that we're there to coach every player, not just the studs.

Ross Romano: [00:48:00] Yeah. Do you have a thought about, you kind of just referenced that question of , which coach am I going to be today, but I'm thinking, I guess, with respect to , coaches. Not only defining, like, their why and their purpose for doing what they do, but in checking in on it, right? Each year, each season as we go on to kind of reflect and say, okay, let me check back and like , refer back to the mission statement here, refer back to, am I still in this for the right reasons?

Why am I still doing this? What? You know, because that's one of the things, right? Is you have to stay consistent with that and you have to bring it every year. And there comes a certain time where either. You may realize what, it's my time with this particular program has run its course, and it might be time for me to take a break or go somewhere else, or it might just be time [00:49:00] that I've, I've kind of, I'm no longer connected to why I got into this in the first place, which I think , is something that can happen.

Certainly. But even , just, I think maybe the practice of checking back in on it. You know, it can keep us tied into it. You know, those things that are easy to lose track of.

Kurt Hines: Yeah, I, gosh, Russ, I love that question because it's something that I started to do. So, I'll make a very long story short. My first year as head coach in New Hampshire, I touched on this a little bit, we lost every game. every game badly. And yes, we didn't have seniors yet, but that was such a small part of it.

Our playbook was this thick. And we ran none of it well, and that was 100 percent my fault. I made so many mistakes as a head coach. At the end of that first year, I had a coaches meeting. We talked about the offense, the defense and the special teams and what the plans were for the off season, strength and conditioning.

And then I asked a question that I now ask, not our entire staff, but certain individuals. And the question I [00:50:00] asked was, what would you have me do differently as a head coach? I knew that. Asking that question was opening a can of worms and it was quiet for about four seconds, felt like 40 minutes. And then one of my assistant coaches said, I don't think the kids respect you. And you can hear a pin drop. And I could feel myself getting red, but I remember thinking to myself, all right, Einstein, you asked the question, you gotta be man enough to answer , answer it and listen to it. So I said, all right, give me an example. And he goes, well, what do you mean? I said, well, do they talk back to me?

He said no, they don't talk back to you. They would never. I said, do they talk behind my back that I'm not hearing about? He said, no, they don't do that. They all love you. And so I'm trying to dig at like, Oh, what are you talking about? They don't respect me. Did they leave the weight room a mess, the locker room, the field?

No. It was almost like a heated, not almost. It was a heated argument in front of the entire staff for a moment, but not in front of the players. So it was very appropriate in my opinion. I said, Derek, give me one example. And he goes, Heinz, they're not afraid of you. And I felt such a calm come over me.

And I said, Derek, I, and he's one of my best friends. I love the guy, literally love him. [00:51:00] I said, Derek, I said, I don't want to be feared. He goes, well, I think head coaches should be feared. And he had just finished, but he was like two, three years out of college. He was a division one athlete, captain for his program.

And I said, when our young men, we didn't have any young women at that time in our program. I said, when they are coming out of the closet, when they're suicidal, when their parents are getting divorced, when they are, you name whatever life's going to throw at them. If they fear me, they're never going to come to me.

And I don't want my legacy to be, Oh, he was so tough and everyone feared him. They never talked back because they were afraid of me. I said, I want them to know that I will. We hear all the time. Those players would run through a wall for Coach so and so. I'm willing to bet that the players that will run through a wall for us will only do it because they know to their core that we will run through that same wall for them, first and foremost.

So I said to him, I said, Derek, we may never agree to this. I said, but I don't want our players to fear me. I want them to know that I love them and that I'm going to be tough on them because I love them, but I'm always going to be there for them. Well, to answer your question, so that, that happened my first year [00:52:00] and a lot of growth came through that for both Derek and myself in different ways.

Now what I do is I have an assistant head coach and I will ask him several times throughout the year, during the season, during the off season, and I'll always tell him, hey, Mark, his name's Mark now , this new coach is named Mark, so I'm not fishing for a compliment. What do you wish I did differently?

What do you wish I would stop doing? What do you wish I would do that I don't do? And the first time I asked him that, he said, coach, he goes you're he's a part of our program, retired FBI agent, has been part of our program for 22 years. I've only been the head coach there for seven. He applied for the head coaching job.

So here I come in, some stranger from out of state, and he could have been trying to undermine everything I did, but it's just, couldn't have been farther from the truth, but that was a possibility. But the first time I asked him that, he said, Coach , you just, you're exactly what we need, and was very complimentary.

I said, Mark, I appreciate that. He said, but do me a favor. Give it a week. Think of something. There's got to be something. I'm not that good yet. None of [00:53:00] us are. There's got to be something. And I loved his response because he said, I'll tell you what, coach, I'll do that. If you think of something for me, I said deal.

Fantastic. Let's meet next. I forget what the day was Wednesday, the following week, whatever it was. Let's meet up and talk about this. And it was great because we had an honest conversation and talked about what he would like to see me do differently. One thing I came up with that I want him to do differently.

I think it's important for us. I think all too often in business and in life, in sports, insecure leaders will hire yes men. I'm going to hire people that look up to me. I'm going to hire people that agree with everything I say and do because That just makes, it feeds my ego. It makes me feel good. Well, shame on me.

I think great leaders hire people who, yes, we can see ourselves working with, but are going to call us out on our BS. Are going to say, hey listen, you hold the players to this standard, what about yourself? You hold the employees to this standard, what about yourself? So I tell our staff, whenever I hire people, when I finally, after that third interview, say, hey, [00:54:00] would love to have you, would you be a part of our program?

Tell them, I don't want a yes man. Now don't disagree with me about play calling in the middle of a game, in front of the players. Because I will make bonehead calls, there's no doubt about it, I've done it before, I'm going to do it again. Wait until we're not in front of the players. And when I see a coach doing something on the field in practice that I don't like, if safety's not an issue, I'll wait until after practice, and say, hey coach so and so, let's talk for a second, and pull him aside.

If safety is an issue, and sometimes we've had this where they're doing a drill where the players are way too far apart to have this be a safe drill I'll stop the drill, say, Hey guys, go grab a drink for a second. And I'll call a coach over and say, Listen, love what you're doing, but I hate this part of it.

Let's shorten the distance up a little bit. So it saves space for that individual. It doesn't continue to allow a dangerous drill to happen. But I think we need to have people in our corner that are going to love us enough that are going to be honest with us. And we need to do the same with them and not just be yes men to them because none of us in life have it all figured out.

None of us ever will. So I think if [00:55:00] we truly want to bless those we coach, we should surround ourselves with people that are going to help us be the best that we can be.

Ross Romano: Yeah, that I mean that definitely speaks to I think what's one of the real challenges of coaching a sport like football is being able to sustain that over time, right? I mean, everybody has a certain number of people in their existing network. So when you take over as a new head coach, you hire the best people to join your staff.

If you're successful, eventually those people will go and have other opportunities elsewhere to become a head coach themselves. Now, if you're only willing to stay within your comfort zone, and you're only going to bring in people you already know that are , are going to tell you what you want to know, eventually the quality is going to diminish.

Versus saying, okay, I'm going to bring in the best people I can bring in that are going to make us the best. And we might not always see eye to eye on everything, and we probably won't, because, we're just getting to know each other, we're learning one [00:56:00] another, or I know that there's certain things this person's going to challenge me on, but I also know that they're committed to the right purpose, and that they're going to make us better, and I'm okay with that they're not always going to agree with everything, I think right?

Kurt Hines: Yeah. Well, and I equated to, I had a coach one time I was speaking up in LA and about culture of a program and a coach during a breakout session said, coach , and I loved, he started by saying, I know there's no secrets, but for lack of better words, what's the secret to culture? And I hadn't looked at his hand yet to see if he was wearing a wedding ring, but I said, coach, are you married?

He goes, I am. I said, what's the secret? And he kind of looked at me like a positive. Where are you going with this? I said, I'm guessing you and your wife don't have some slogan or logo on a t shirt. Or in a weight room or a bathroom or a kitchen to find your culture as a family. I said, for me, the secret is relationships.

You probably have a successful marriage because you spend a lot of time with your wife. And I think building successful programs, you spend a lot of time with [00:57:00] the people you coach with and the people you coach, getting to know them on a personal level. Because like, like you said, it, the game's always changing.

It's always evolving. People are going to come and people are going to go. And if you want to build something lasting, you can have certain core values that say that anyone that's part of our program is going to be treated with respect. Whether they're a position coach, first year coach for 44 years, whatever it is, they're going to feel valued and appreciated.

And the same for our players, obviously.

Ross Romano: Totally. Well, Kurt, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show here. And I think our listeners are going to get a lot out of this. I know you have , your website and some other things is there or someplace you'd like to direct people where they can get more resources, learn more.

Kurt Hines: First of all, I appreciate you having me on. It's a blessing, as I said from the beginning, to be connected, so thank you, Ross. No, they just follow me on Twitter. I'm on most. Is Coach Curt Hines. And I do have the website also coach Kurt Heinz. Like we tell our players, make yourself easy to find.

Don't have , fast cleats 68 or [00:58:00] whatever it is. Or but I just love connecting with people and growing with people and have a book coming out in the next few months. So I'm excited to, to share that. And it's all that stuff can be found again on the website and on my my Twitter.

Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, everybody check that out. We'll put the link below to the website and to the Twitter handle. So you could find that stuff easily. And so if there's things you want to check out and also we'll put the link to the book Inside Out Coaching that Coach Heinz mentioned. So, if any of that is of use to you, Please check it out.

We'll make it easy for you. Also if you have not already, please do subscribe to sideline sessions to hear the rest of our spring season here. We have coaches from a variety of different sports and backgrounds, individual sports, mental performance, team sports, everything you can want. So, check that out and or visit bpodcast.

network to learn about all of our shows. Coach Hines, thanks again for being here.

Kurt Hines: Appreciate you having me on. [00:59:00]