Sideline Sessions

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everybody to another episode of Sideline Sessions on the Be Podcast Network. So pleased to have you here with us. We're really excited to continue this [00:01:00] season, this debut season of our series here and have another great conversation today. I'm really pleased to be joined by Samantha Arsenault Livingstone.

She is an Olympic gold medalist, a high performance consultant, speaker, and mental health activist. She was also co captain to 2005. A national champion Georgia Bulldogs swimming and diving team, Samantha spent time as a high school science teacher and swim coach, and in 2016, she founded Livingstone High Performance and the Whole Athlete Initiative in response to the mental health crisis impacting young people across the globe.

Samantha, welcome to the show.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Oh, so grateful to have to be here with you today. Thank you for having me.

Ross Romano: So I'd love to, to start with your time as an athlete, and then go from there. But of course you know, as each of us, no matter if we're first starting probably at age five or six, or in the college or the Olympics, right, we start to have some. [00:02:00] perspective or understanding of what coaches do, what they are how they're impacting us and making an impression.

So I'd be interested in hearing from your experience as an athlete what was your experience of coaching? What coaches made an impression on you? You know, how did that kind of support you through your swim career?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yes, so I have to say that I started, my first love was soccer actually, and that was the sport that I started the earliest, and found my way to the swimming pool because of my older brother, who was swimming, because it was way easier to swim than be hot on the sidelines. So, my first experience with coaches were like parents of my friends, right, playing on the town soccer team.

And, That they were like, we met business when we went to practice. There was just this like shifting of gears of, okay, we're here. We're together. We're going to work hard. And I'm so fortunate that those early memories from when I joined swimming at nine years old, and when I started to play soccer, probably around like five or six of those within [00:03:00] those two arenas that had really positive coaching experiences met with like warm.

And that balance was like a blend of warmth and also like, we're going to get this done. We're going to be focused. Like, let's get back on track. And it was process focused. I did not have the language at the time when I was younger, but looking back, that, that was the culture kind of on the stage. By the time that I got to the age that are a lot of athletes, I think it's younger now, but that 12, 13, 14 year mark where you're having to kind of make decisions about where to spend your time.

So I. We was playing club soccer at that time and then swimming was, I had made it, made my way to a national stage at 12, 13 years old. So I had to kind of make a decision. And so I stepped away from the sport of soccer and that's when my coaching experience was pretty rough actually and swimming.

And I don't know how much detail we want to get into here, but it turned into what, when I said no to soccer and yes to swimming, I transitioned [00:04:00] out of a YMCA program into a club experience. And the coaches were abusive and I didn't have the language again at the time. And so there was this, my experience as an athlete was I have this deep, compelling desire to grow and to see how far I can go in sport.

Like that was always in me. And I thought first it was going to be gymnastics. Then it was going to be soccer and then swimming. And I felt this. I was in incredible frustration and resistance and inner conflict because the people that were supposed to help me get there. Now, my parents knew nothing about swimming, right?

They were, my dad played football and my mom really wasn't encouraged to play sports, play a little field hockey. I was feeling this like these are the people that are supposed to help me get to my dream and I'm getting like I'm on tracks, if you will, right, making progress in the sport. But when I go, my body was lighting up with messages of like, I'm on, I'm unsafe and uncomfortable.

And so I [00:05:00] started to retreat and actually went through a pretty dark time until my mom noticed that something was going on. My love of swimming had died. Like it just, I no longer wanted to be there. I didn't want to swim anymore. And she noticed and asked. You know, do you want to swim? And my answer was no.

And then she said, well, what if we change teams? She didn't know what was going on, but would would this matter? And that's where I changed organizations and club teams. And you talk about the role of a coach and that experience. That was the coach that ended up helping me get to the top of the Olympic podium at 18.

And his presence created the, just this absolute like container for hard work where it was pure joy and fun. It was hard and also like working hard was fun. And it was again, process focused kind of back to my roots around this. This is all about the journey and yes, it's important to set these goals, but like here's how we do it.

And then the music flaring at practice and just the. Connection through working [00:06:00] hard, and he became in ways. You know, I was like a really powerful guiding force, like as I was becoming, right? So at 18 years old. And so then when I went off to college, my experience there with coaches, that was very different actually, when I, cause I came off of the Olympics and then started my college career and I felt frustrated.

I landed at Michigan first and I felt frustrated by that, that I didn't have what I had before that connection. I was just kind of like one of many. And that dynamic and relationship, what I realized was how important it was to me, that I felt heard and seen, and so long story short there, I ended up having shoulder surgery, red shirting, and went through a kind of a rough patch post Olympics, and I moved toward supports and healed.

And came out of that and ended up transferring to the University of Georgia where I had, again, like coaches who created an environment that was [00:07:00] conducive to really high performance and also honoring us as human beings. And so, like, the language around I don't know if you've heard the expression and in the education world, especially have like, instead of being the temperature with your thermostat right setting tone and creating a container.

And it's not about trying to control, but it was more about empowering and so that like kind of. Coaches who had the greatest impact in a positive way along the way were those that stood alongside of me and mirrored back my strengths, right, and held steady when I felt wobbly and created that container of deep respect for the humans that were in front of them.

And that's what was at my experience at Georgia, it wasn't just one coach, it was an entire staff and then the support staff around them that really shared those values. So I feel really blessed. I feel very blessed that I had so many incredible coaches you know, and then was able to experience the not so incredible experiences, which helps me today to really be able to relate and pay forward what [00:08:00] I've learned.

Ross Romano: Yeah, that experience throughout each of those pieces and then in reflecting back on it as well and getting into coaching yourself did you develop any way of being able to articulate to others and other coaches, the distinction and the between appropriate tough coaching, right?

And particularly in an endurance sport where there's a certain amount, I'm sure there's a certain percentage, whatever it is. And I'm sure you have a perspective on this as far as that just has to be intrinsic in that athlete to say, well, I'm just going to really push myself, but also the role of the coach in getting the best out of you versus you know, when it's on the other side of the line and it's inappropriate and abusive and.

And especially understanding that in [00:09:00] most, probably all sports, but particularly again, like endurance sports, right, there are times when you need that tough coaching and, but it's not but we also want to be mindful of not valorizing it in this way that over the years, one of our other guests you know, earlier this season was basketball player named Charlie Miller, who played at the Indiana University for Bobby Knight, who is probably the most famous known for that era of valorizing those tough coaches that now we would say, well there's a lot of stuff there that I'm not so sure about.

Right. But how do you kind of, if you're maybe coaching another coach, right, that?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: I love you went right here. Like this is the space. I feel like for so where there's room for so much growth because it's not either or and I think that if we peel back the layers and we get to the root and the foundation and we can stand like build a strong foundation then. Then we can get into that space where we [00:10:00] can push.

So one of the pieces of the foundation has to be that our language cannot be shaming. So we, that separation of the person from their behavior, like is such a core fundamental concept. So who I am is not what I do. So I am and in the parenting space, Dr. Becky, I don't know if you know who she is, so like a influencer online and.

I don't know if you follow her work, it's really good. It's good stuff. She talks about two fists and I've adopted that and taken her, like her visual, because it's something that I've talked about and say like, okay, like your left fist, if this is who you are, your right fist, like, so as a coach are, and so this applies for the athletes that we're working with, as well as the coaches themselves, like we're going to show up above the line and be able to perform and have these moments where we raise that right fist, right?

It's above the line. And then we're going to have moments where we fall short. And we fall below the line. And the right fist can go up and down and all around, because we're human striving, [00:11:00] so we're going to have these experiences, and the left fist remains steady and constant, because that's our worth as a human being, and that we're enough, period, regardless.

So, that enough ness. It's not embracing that and getting in the into this messy space with coaches is like, okay, well, we're not saying is like you're enough and that entitles you to a spot on the roster. We're saying that you're enough as a human being, you're worthy of love and respect, period.

Now, whether or not your performances are at the level where they can make a scoring roster, let's say, that's another thing, but that's your behavior. And that's and that it just opens up when you can build that foundational piece. And understand that concept and continue to come back to it, you move away from language, right, that's shaming around attacking a person or making sweeping generalizations, and move into a more nuanced ability to develop feedback that's actually behavior specific, which can be corrected and changed, right?[00:12:00]

So that piece, I would say, is part of it. And then the other is in introducing the concept that both things can be two things can be true at once, which is, Something our brain doesn't like, right? We're uncomfortable with that, but two things can be true at once. And so when we're embracing that space of, I care about you and also can hold you to these high expectations, right?

Both things can be true at one time. You know, I care about you as a human being, right? And also that behavior is not okay. So it's not it's getting in and creating space for those nuanced conversations. And honestly, meeting coaches. I've yet to meet a coach, honestly, and I've worked with a lot of them it doesn't care about the people they work with the amount of time.

I'm married to a coach as well, right? Like, it's a family sacrifice. Like, it takes an enormous amount of time and energy. And [00:13:00] when we can. Also get clear about that and acknowledge and mirror that back like you wouldn't be doing this if you didn't care about the development of young people that are in front of you.

Okay, so how are we going to do that? And then the third piece of that foundation of law is that connecting is helping them to see the actual literature around. Okay, when we try to control and have power over like this is the cost of this, we become less independent, less gritty, right? All of the things that we know versus this.

ability to empower and help people understand how to regulate their inner world, but that's actually not going to make us washed up and weak. So it's like speaking directly into the fears really of if I let go of control, then what's going to happen, they're all going to fall apart. So I think that naturally you might have some that realize like this sports, not for me, I'm not actually willing to do these things, but then isn't the team better off for that.

And that person better off for that, right. When you shake it all out. So I think, yeah, so those three kind of core. [00:14:00] pieces set the stage for rich conversation. Then you get into the scenarios of every day around like, what is that? Like, how do we navigate that space of having high expectations, bringing intensity and passion and wanting and striving for excellence while also honoring the humans that are in front of us?

Yeah.

Ross Romano: Yeah.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: I could talk, I could spend all our time right here.

Ross Romano: Well, what so, and I I know there were certain inflection points during your career with athletics, but what was the point in which you got interested in coaching yourself and thinking about that it was something that you may actually want to do?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yeah. So I actually never saw this coming.

Ross Romano: Yeah.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: I, well, I say that and I fell in love with teaching. So you could, I mean, teaching and coaching, like how I see sport is a vehicle. It's a vehicle that allows us to connect and tap [00:15:00] into that greatness and magic inside of us.

Ross Romano: right.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: while I may have been my vehicle before doing this work formally was like.

Talking about plant cells and animal cells in biology class, like it was still about helping the young people in front of me connect with that magic inside of them with this con, the construct of like the knowledge and learning is a power, right? And it is empowering. So, so I think I've always, that has always interested me.

There was a moment. Where I originally, so when I came off of the Olympics, won my gold medal, came into that I would say I kind of fell into the darkness when I arrived at Michigan. I was feeling that disconnect with the coach that I referenced and the team and just was going through a rough spot and a huge part because I needed shoulder surgery and I did not want to deal with that reality.

So when I was getting help, I also referenced that one of the assignments was to go out to a school and mentor and.[00:16:00] We were thrust the part of the mentorship was you're put into a classroom. And that is when I was like, okay, I'm not going to be pre med anymore. I need to switch to teaching because I felt called to do it.

So I would say that experience of witnessing those like unlocks or aha moments, or that like young person that just sits up a little taller, knowing that you see them and that you hear them and that you care about them. And they just learned something like those that lit me up. And so I shifted my major to education.

And when I started teaching, I also started coaching swimming. And so then it's just been this. You know, I'm no longer in a traditional classroom, but I still, like, I feel like I take my classroom with me. So, like, what I'm teaching looks different on the outside in the way that I'm teaching. But as a coach and a high performance consultant and coach, mindfulness coach, I wear whatever title.

It's really about connecting and helping the human in front of me grow, you know. So, yeah, so I think it was kind of a combination. But I definitely [00:17:00] didn't think that I would be in this space as a mental health activist and coach in this way, you know? Yeah.

Ross Romano: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, this is certainly going to be an overgeneralization because I'm just kind of making it up on the spot based on my own experience and what I'm thinking about during this conversation. But I was thinking about the reasons why people become inspired to...

Get involved with coaching and versus even those who become inspired to, to become teachers, as you were just talking about and of course there's a lot of overlaps and commonalities and you know, on one of our other episodes when I asked how. our guest would define coaching.

He said that he defined it as teaching, right? And yet I so many times I talk to teachers and what kind of, how they get involved in it. Like most of those stories start with some teacher that they had that that inspired them and that they wanted to [00:18:00] be like. And there's also those who you know, it kind of fits into two buckets.

It's those who had. a wonderful schooling experience and had some great teachers that inspired them, and they want to give that to others. There are also those who didn't have that wonderful of a school experience and want to give others the opposite. But in any case, even thinking about the similarity to coaching, I don't I hear much more about.

The interest in the sport itself and in the young athletes and in wanting to help them learn comes up much more frequently than that. I wanted to specifically be like some other coach, right? I mean, I might, you may have learned a lot from other coaches, whether as an athlete or just throughout our coaching careers, we seek out guidance and mentorship, but it's interesting that almost, and again, like, I'm just totally overgeneralizing.

And so listeners you could hold me accountable [00:19:00] for that, but,

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: I'm going to make it messy for you When you were just reflecting back, who came up for me was my, the mentor Greg Harden is his name. Who is that Michigan? Who was the man who I met with every week for two years while I healed through my shoulder surgery at depression, eating disorder and moved into recovery from that.

And that he is who assigned the mentorship to go to schools, right? He introduced me to mindfulness. Didn't, he didn't say the name of it at the time. It was not as commonly talked about, especially not in sport. It's still tough to bring that into sport, even though we know, yeah, that's another tangent that could go on.

So he introduced me to these concepts and he empowered me in the language he would use. I want to help you become the world's greatest expert on yourself. And so that is, he is who, like, so in this kind of journey to where I am today, I would say that experience, knowing his impact and knowing that not everyone is as fortunate as I was to be able to have somebody like Greg in their life when they needed it most.

And so [00:20:00] that is, yeah, so there's, that's many teachers inspired me. He was the one that I would say, like, this is, I want to. Yeah. Stand in that space and help people like he helps people. Yeah.

Ross Romano: I feel like if I were to categorize the worst coaches I ever had, it would be the ones who felt that they were duty bound to perpetuate the lineage of the terrible coaches that came before them, and not because they necessarily even thought that the way they were coached was so great, but because there was some, like, masculine value placed around being a difficult person, right?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: and it's about, it's like that model is like control. And also I would say that as an educator, you, I know there's alternative paths to education, but a huge part of what that I got my master's in education as well. I'm just like, what, [00:21:00] why are you doing this? Why do you want to do this? Why do you think this works?

Like there was so much reflection. In preparation for actually, how do we learn? And that, unfortunately, in this country, in the U. S., is not, other countries have programming, but we're just not there when it comes to helping coaches with coach education and understanding in the same ways that we do, right, with that on ramp in teaching.

And so there, I don't know that unless it's kind of forced by their governing bodies, and at that point, like, not so much down at the lower levels, like, that there are strategies and skills, like, Side note, my daughter, all four of my girls play ice hockey, and my littlest, who's seven, her coach is incredible, and he's trying to work through openly, like, best ways to manage poor behavior, and that model of like, do what's done, what was done to me is what we, all we know till we know better, right, unless we've done work on the side to understand how kids learn and respond to things, versus like, yeah that a teacher comes in with that experience [00:22:00] of at least being mentored in that way.

So I think that we just stay on autopilot, exactly what you're saying. And that model, and so to break away from it, if we go to the brain, like, wait, you're going to tell me, you're going to cause me to challenge my beliefs? Like that's uncomfortable, right? Like that space of cognitive dissonance, people don't want to be in that space.

So they're, that, that's the place of helping to where that foundation, right, is built, but putting out there, like connecting with, you care about the development. Like, why are you even coaching? Why are you coaching? Right? And then, okay, here's some ways that we can do this. And I do think that most, there are still going to be some that push in the extreme direction of getting behind and supporting that way of coaching, of controlling and that old school model.

Yeah, no, it is totally what you're saying. And I don't know that there's a net to catch the coaches as they enter. The fields with education in that way besides modules online that you can click through

Ross Romano: right. And it's hard to transition. I [00:23:00] imagine. And then again, I said refer to that specifically being coaches who were then replicating the behavior of the coaches they had that what that. means, right, by definition is that they were athletes in the sport that they're coaching, which that is a challenging transition if you're used to playing the sports for years and then you go to coach you no longer.

have a direct impact on the results in the field.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Oh

Ross Romano: you're right. You make a difference, but you're not. So that's what that

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: it is

Ross Romano: versus when we have coaches who didn't play the sport or didn't play the sport at a certain level, who they could be challenged in other ways, but They may not have the same impulse toward control because their experience is different.

And it's just different ways of dealing with different challenges and coming to the understanding at a certain point that. You still have a [00:24:00] job to do, but there's certain things that are now just out of your control.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Oh, I'm like not okay and out of your control. Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. Yes.

With control. Oh my gosh.

Ross Romano: So, you know, When you were coaching swimming, for example, and of course you were as the, You achieved at the highest level as a swimmer yourself, were there challenges that came along with coaching a sport that you were so successful in?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Totally. Yeah, this is making me laugh and I apologize to those that I coached that first year because that, even though I, so I'd come from my high school classroom. And where I was a rookie acknowledging that I'm a rookie learning, right. And then stepping into a pool and that new role. And I was just like, so an example was like explaining butterfly and so much for me about swimming was feel.

And so I'm like trying to explain to the athlete, like where their body position is and where to press. And like, it was just not registering. And like, [00:25:00] I held my composure but inside going like, just like, can't you just feel it? Like, so there was frustration there because I didn't have the language to communicate effectively as a coach.

And that was a really challenging shift of like, I can be an expert at this thing myself, but can I actually teach this thing? Two different things. Right. Can I actually communicate and scaffold? And so it was humbling because I had to then turn toward age group coachers who I don't even know that they ever swam in college.

Right. But they, and they were incredible communicators. They made swimming fun. They were able to teach the nuance pieces that set the athletes up for success instead of just kind of coming at, so I had a lot to learn. Yeah. So that was, yes, I absolutely can resonate with that space of. Not understanding what they didn't understand, right?

Yeah.

Ross Romano: Sort of an in the weeds swimming question before we go [00:26:00] broader, but... Are there particular ways of determining at a certain age or as as kids are growing up and participating in different sports whether or not swimming will become the sport where they may excel the most, or, I mean, obviously there's common physical characteristics of swimmers, right, height and other things, but I'm curious, because for me, for example, like, Jared, before we start recording, right, that I'm six, five, but I didn't know until much later that would have been an advantage

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yeah. I'm sure it would have been.

Ross Romano: But it at the time you think it's an advantage in basketball, but only up to a certain point, and then it's like, it's not anymore. So I'm like, oh, I maybe I should have stuck with swimming a little longer, but are there any things like that? You know, and I'm sure listeners may have kids of various ages doing different sports and might be trying to figure out, okay you know, what should we try?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Right. [00:27:00] That's such an interesting question. I, and I don't know, like, if there's actual data out there that says, like, hey, these are the things. I would say that as, and I don't know even how to, like, quantify or even, like, qualitatively explain to you what it looks like. You can just see people move through the water and there's a level of efficiency, so. And like, I'm like, well, one of my daughters is an example. I'm like, are you sure you don't want to try swimming? Because like, you should just never before I've taught her like those basic strokes, but just the way, like the, even compared to the other girls. So like, just the way that someone can, that moves through the water.

How kinesthetically aware they are. So like when you're talking swimming, you're smallest tweaks is matter of tenths of seconds, which adds up, right. It's a lot in the sport. So the ability to be able to have the kinesthetic awareness to know like, okay, if the coach is explaining this to me, can I actually implement that and feel that in my body?

And then the design, [00:28:00] like, do they love it? I mean, that, that's like the, I think the biggest. Like, does it bring them joy? And of course, inside the joy, there's, we, that's another place we can experience two things, like, we can experience, it could be hard work, and also, like, is there space for joy and play there?

And then I would say from that they're being able to continue to have that, like, I saw too many super fast kids at young ages that I was, that were my peers when I entered, and then they burned out. Swimming is like a Unfortunately still considered like a year round sport, right, versus the seasonal and having an actual off season.

So, yeah, so I would say, I think my like first response to that would be kind of watching them swim and move through the water. And then maybe, right, but the other pieces have to be there, you know.

Ross Romano: Excellent. So shifting gears up to your current work, which is you know, focused at a variety of areas. Tell us about the whole athlete initiative and what was your motivation behind [00:29:00] starting that?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yeah, thanks for asking. So that, there are different layers and levels of it, right? So from an organizational standpoint, looking at, like, the whole purpose is to provide pillars of support that we have. Elevate well being. So we talk about mental well being and emotional well being and also, so not either or, but and also increase access to high performance, right?

So elevate performance. That's that space I was talking about when we build that foundation. So huge. So that work can be done from an organizational level and looking at structures and systems in place all the way down to the individual level of like what like how can I become the world's greatest expert on me?

How do I navigate my inner world? So the catalyst for the whole athlete initiative I originally, so I was teaching, as I mentioned, and then my we, our world moved and then came twins, is what I like to say, that I chose to stay home from the classroom, because paying for daycare would have been, like, I would have been paying to go to work.

Oh my goodness. But then one of my twins needed [00:30:00] open heart surgery. And so that was like this kind of rock bottom moment for me of like really deeply rambling with like, Whoa, like what do I want to do in this world? And like, how do I first function and survive? And she's thriving now. We're very grateful for that.

But that was a kind of rough road back to my feet. And on that journey of healing. I was reflecting back on like memories were coming up from my experience of I'd never. So as a mother now, 13 years removed from the Olympics, never talked about the abuse of coaching that I had an experience at the club swimmer, never talked about the moment on the podium, where I was.

It was this duality of experiencing incredible hum, like I was humbled and proud and exhausted and so grateful for the opportunity to represent our country and win a gold medal. Like there was such a euphoric high and also it was coupled with this like [00:31:00] emptiness of, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it would, this is all it would be.

And in a vicious inner critic that was so unkind. About all the things all the ways I was falling short, even though I won a gold medal. Like, so there was this real like deep rumbling that honestly, for 16 years, I was like, shove it down. I literally had all my Olympic stuff boxed up, never talked about it.

I never introduced myself. And that way I was just like, this is a different part of me, like a different person. And it was through that experience of navigating open heart surgery. That healing journey. And then the collision of the healing journey with watching the real Olympic games. And I don't know if you're, if you watch the Olympics, but the swimmers were making some pretty poor decisions, got in trouble with the law.

Like it was this whole ordeal and I'm simultaneously in therapy rumbling, like, can we, what you're talking about? Can you have intense coaching that's not abusive? Can you be great and also be healthy? So like I was personally reflecting. [00:32:00] And sifting through, like, literature and researcher's work to find the answers.

And while the Rio Olympics were going on, and I'm in the midst of this kind of, like, swirl, my daughters were old enough to get that I was an Olympian. And they're like, where, like, where's all your stuff? So we unboxed the boxes. And as they were playing and dressing up with medals and, like, literal, like, my suits from, And if you've ever competed in swimming, they're really tight and my, my I forget how old she was.

So it's four years old. Four year old daughter puts my suit on that I wore at 18. She's like, this is tight. You have no idea. Anyway, so I found inside those boxes journals that captured The inner world of my 18 year old self, and I was staring at my young girl, so I had four daughters at that time, one was an infant, three were playing with all the stuff, and I was just going like, the joy on their faces, like how does one go from [00:33:00] this to this, like the way that I was talking about myself and I saw how sick I was.

And so it was literally in that moment that I'm like, okay I originally had no plans to take my entrepreneurial work. I was doing wellness coaching and empowering women and all like no, no desire to take it into the sporting world until I read that and learned, oh my gosh, I had no idea how sick I was.

I had no idea. And I need to do something because now I know I had this body of work that I had been compiling on my own from just based on my own curiosity that I knew. I felt called similar to teaching. I felt called like this. I need to pay this forward because I really believe at their core coaches are good humans who are doing the best that they can with the resources they have.

And they just don't know better yet, right? They don't know how to actually have high expectations, high standards, high performance, and also treat athletes in front of them. Well, so yeah, so here I am. So there's lots of layers. It is work that is [00:34:00] challenging and humbling and Exhausting and filling and it's all of it.

Right. So

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and even in that response and that explanation I think it speaks to something that is it's clearly present in the work that you're doing a whole athlete and it must be you know, just a value of the way you're going about it. But that is. Uncommon, and it's the the presence of vulnerability in coaching, right?

And certainly it contrasts with what we talked about earlier, that kind of old school approach that would never show quote unquote weakness type of thing. It also relates to, I think, sometimes the unintentional reality of why, in certain cases, The athlete who might have been the best of the best in their sport has some trouble coaching it because they are just have a [00:35:00] difficult time relating to

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: yeah. Yes.

Ross Romano: you talked about this a little bit and I think about it in team sports as well, right?

You kind of rarely see that Hall of Fame player become the most successful coach because there's just a certain point where it becomes difficult to relate to somebody who just doesn't have the ability that you had. And it's not that you're trying to kind of be invulnerable, but you don't have much to be vulnerable about, right?

At least from an ability standpoint versus the the coach Who's career didn't take them that far as a player. It's much easier for them to be able to see what the struggles are and relate to those. Now, of course there's struggles that go beyond what happens on the field and then what happens physically but it's all the other things that make us.

And that also relates to, I think, why the pillars of the whole athlete initiative are not what you might traditionally expect to be said, okay, this is a coaching program. Let's see what they [00:36:00] teach.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yes, exactly. And that, yes. And I'll tell like, so when you were sharing, what came to mind is I sat with coaches recently in high school coaches. So one of them had been coaching, actually coached my cousins. So like decades of coaching and he was like, he admitted after the workshop that we did together, like when we were checking out that he was resistant and wasn't going to come, and that then it had been one of the most powerful impactful sessions and that the one of the hardest parts.

I think in all of this is that releasing, like when we are willing to rumble and be open to new ways of coaching, we have, there's almost like this massive guilt that comes of how we showed up before we didn't know. And so he was, that was what he was sharing was like, Wow. Like that takes such courage, right?

So yeah it takes a brave leader is what I say, the people that [00:37:00] I work with, I get to work with who are willing to bring me in and how I when I, we talk about the pillars, there's layers of support of what it looks like and the work that we're doing. And I if we zoom way out, it's like, there's three things you can train in sport.

There's the physical body, there's the technical components, right. It could say tactical as well. And then there's the mental and So often that old school model is like, okay, let's train the mental through the physical, right? Like we're going to just grind and push and get gritty. And there's some truth to that, right?

Like when you're in the pain cave, like there's a lot of learning that can happen, but we also know now so much around neuroscience. And the power of actually explicitly training that mental pillar. So I come in and depending on who I'm working with, what level, right? Whether it's the organization, whether it's a team or the so team of coaches and or a team of athletes or the individuals, like what do we want to work on and strengthen when it comes to this [00:38:00] mental pillar?

And so I come in as that kind of third pillar of support. And yes, it is these kinds of conversations and yes, they are uncomfortable because. It's new. And so similarly, what we're asking, like we're asking our athletes to get uncomfortable all the time and hit that growth edge and the discomfort. And so are we willing to do the same things and I think some of the resistance to that is like, well, I've done it this way forever.

So like, it's working for me. Others the other resistance is I think deeper than that, which is like, I've now, if I'm going to learn, this is, yeah. harmful and now I've got to rumble with the fact that I did that like I showed up all these decades like that and we have to just we have I know it's hard but release what's what we've done right and repair if we need to but that idea of being able to come to the table takes an enormous amount of courage yeah so could share more on that.

And I'm happy to talk details when it comes to like what it looks like. Yeah, just I'll follow your lead here. Yeah.

Ross Romano: I mean, yeah, and I don't [00:39:00] know how you would also, I guess, describe the relationship between that and mental fitness as you define it and teach it. But that's clearly an important part of all of this. And I think worth touching on before we wrap up is that part of coaches. strengthening their own mental fitness.

And then after that how they help their athletes develop it. But what about from the coach's perspective, right? How did, how would they go

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: Yeah. So that I mean, there's so many there could drop resources. So like when it comes to becoming aware. So, okay, let me back up even further. Embracing the fact that we're human. So we're humans and we have these beautiful brains and this nervous system and these beautiful brains of ours have taken in a lifetime of living, right?

It's like a video camera, the best way I've heard it described from a neuroscientist that I work with. It's like, we have this video on our whole lives recording with no ability to edit or [00:40:00] delete. And that, then when we're taking a new experience, this is all processed through all those old memories, right?

And it shapes how we see ourselves and how we see the world. So with that, this idea of we're humans. We have these beautiful brains and nervous systems and also the automatic thoughts and stories that are generated for every new experience we encounter. So an athlete comes to us and says something or an athlete shows up late or they're not listening or hearing you, right, or whatever it might be.

That experience is then processed through all of our old stuff, right? We all have stuff. And then we fire off these thoughts and these, and then those thoughts activate emotion and we create stories. So all that happens in such like split seconds. So when we can grow our awareness that's happening, instead of this denial that it's happening or trying to just like shove it like the old way can be described as like this bulldozing of just like plow through, deny that it's there, shove it down, our body Hold on to it.

Like there's no, it's energy. We can't just like destroy it. Right. It's we can try to shove it [00:41:00] down, but it's going to pop in some capacity. So I would say how coaches can help grow and strengthen their mental fitness is by becoming aware of their inner world as the first step. And then you say, okay, well, what do I do with all this inner world?

And we start to develop and strengthen the emotional agility. And so Susan David has an awesome book called actually emotional agility. And she talks about these four steps. And that process of first owning, I'm human, I have thoughts and emotions and stories. And then we say, Okay, well, what are these thoughts and emotions and stories telling me?

And just because I think a thought doesn't mean it's true. So you get into the space of actually paying attention, which we have to pause to do, and not believing everything that we think, but starting to challenge the thoughts that we have and name the emotions that we're feeling so that we can then We create the space so that we can then show up with a line of action, right?

So in between that, maybe it's reaching for some tools to be able to process our ground. So it like, I don't know if we're too [00:42:00] granular now, but I can say one more thing about that. And the old way of just like something happens, we have this activating event, it fires these thoughts and emotions and we're reacting.

So like an example where we can bring just everybody's been behind the wheel of a car, right? Like somebody cuts you off or is driving really slow in front of you or something happens, right? Instantly, we've got thoughts, emotions pulsing through us and stories in a matter of seconds. And what we want to do is not be on that autopilot and just like reacting based off urges and impulses.

So what we want to do is be able to create space. And so the, one of the acronyms that I share with coaches is just stop. S T O P. So it's like literally stopping. The pause is powerful. Taking a deep breath. And this gets into the nerve, like the, our nervous system, but being able to take a really deep breath, like inhaling twice, and then exhaling all the air out, activates our parasympathetic stress response, which is going to pump the brakes.[00:43:00]

Right, we'll be allowing our brain to think a little bit more clearly and then we observe what's happening internally and then we proceed with the next best steps we take aligned action. So it's this process, like that is mental fitness. Mental fitness isn't just like plowing through and shoving it down.

Mental fitness is this nuanced approach of becoming more mindful. And more emotionally agile internally. Yeah. And then we can help, we can model it and we can, and I'll tell you like to see it, like you see it work. It is, it's fun. It's really fun. It changes relationships. It changes performances. Like when people realize, Oh, I'm just a human.

And this makes sense. What's happening to me. We stopped thinking we're broken. Right. We stopped thinking we're bad. Like, it's just, it's, yeah, it's. A powerful unlocking experience. Yeah,

Ross Romano: you mentioned modeling. That's probably part of the answer for this, but yeah. I'm wondering what is. One, how can coaches then help their athletes develop their mental fitness, but also, [00:44:00] what are the roles in there? For example, if we're talking about. soccer, right? What is the head soccer coach's role in helping the players on the team develop their mental fitness versus making use of other resources like a mental fitness coach or a sports psychologist or the other resources.

And so how might all that fit together and then what might that look like?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: yeah, that's a beautiful question. And I think it depends on resources and role and level and all of that. And I think, so the, yeah, I'm, this is my bias. My husband's a strength and conditioning coach. And so 15 years ago, they were nowhere to be found other than football. Right. Like maybe division one football programs have them.

And now we understand the relevance and importance of having that professional in that space to train the physical body in that way. That's that is complimentary to what the coach is doing. It allows, it helps the coach do the work of the sport and the sport specific pieces better. Right. Like that's ultimately the job.

And so I would my [00:45:00] dream is like in 15 years from now, we have this resource of this mental pillar. And professional supporting and we do, we see it right with sports like resources, but when you're looking even at some power five schools, it's like five total for like an entire athletic department, right?

And now we go, okay, all the way, we trickle down to like you sports don't have the ability to have that resource. So I think it's a, I think it's both things need to happen. The coaches growing their awareness. in their own lives. Cause they also still like, even with the teams that I work with, like they, the authority that they have the power, you could say, even that they have in command because of their position, if they're not on board and they're not working on it, like you could do all the work you want with strength conditioning, with the mental fitness piece, and it's not going to be, there's not going to be buy in the same way that if they're on board and doing it themselves.

So growing their own mental fitness and being able when you were, Asking like the first thing that pops for me is [00:46:00] When a coach can connect with a human being in front of them, just as a human being in front of them first, like that's first pass. Even when there's feedback needing to be given, it's like, how are you as a human?

Okay, now here's what we've got to talk about. So that alone creates a space for that growth. And then being able to explicitly train. So in an ideal world, similar to the weight room, you would never drop in and do one set of squats and go like, okay, now I'm ready. Like now I can go do the thing. It's like, you can't drop in and do one mindfulness exercise or the work I do with same here global, like the star X, right.

You can't just like do tapping one time and then you're ready to go. Right. It's just, it requires this deliberateness integrated into our routines where we're building the neural pathways. Right. So like the mental muscles, as I say, so yeah. So I think it's a both, it's a both and so the role of the coach.

It's connecting with the humans who are striving first foundational piece, right. And [00:47:00] then if they have the resources to, so and that for the way one of the pillars of support what I've been doing in the process currently of onboarding a volleyball club. So they don't have the ability their high school kids to be able to have a full time person.

And so in our day and age now we can right they're not even in the state that I live in but what we do is we get we have meetings. And then they have access to the online academy and I support the coaches to bring it to life, right? So then they're taking 15 minutes out of practice. That's the part that's, there's resistance there too, but they've got to commit that time out of practice to drop in that piece with support, right?

So then there's integration there. So there's lots of ways to be creative with it. It just, it takes. Saying it's important, getting clear on why it's important and then creating a time for it. Yeah.

Ross Romano: So Samantha, it's been amazing to have you here on the show. And I I'm sure we have listeners out there who might be interested in at least learning more about your work, if not going one step further, where can they learn [00:48:00] more? What will they learn if they check out your website? And you know, how did that go?

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: My website's getting, so it's still running and up, so Samantha livingstone.com probably the best way. And then there's a place to connect directly and I do read all emails that come through. It just might take me a little bit to get back. And then I'm on social channels as well. But the yeah, my, my website is.

Is being, there'll be a new one coming soon with revisions, but it is accurate up to date. And yeah, I post and there's lots of blogs, past blogs to read that they're on there. Like there's lots. And then there's a, there's actually an opt-in control the controllable. So like if you say yes to joining the mailing list, then you get this.

It's actually one of my favorite things that I get in gift, which is the control, the controllables doc that they can, anybody a parent could use. You can use it in your classroom, you can use it as a coach with the team. So yeah, I encourage you to print that out and share that. So yeah,

Ross Romano: Excellent. Coaches, check out those resources. We'll put all the links below to Samantha's website, to social media, to everywhere where you can [00:49:00] kind of find those resources, so check that out. Please do also subscribe to Sideline Sessions to hear the rest of this current season and our future seasons.

We continue to have a lot of wonderful guests to share with you. Visit bpodcast. network to learn about all of our shows. Samantha, thanks again for being here.

Samantha Arsenault Livingstone: yeah, thank you.